Can you tell us a bit about your background and where you are from?
I was born in Toowoomba where my father still lives today, but I grew up in Armidale and Sydney. My mother was a student at UNE whilst also working to raise 3 kids as a single parent. I have fond memories of tagging along with her on many a ‘sick day’ off school where I would spend the day in the Women’s Room on campus. Part of the reason I was interested in UNE was the good memories I had of my mother's time as a mature age student and the support she received from the school. She met my stepfather at a University Ball, and we eventually relocated to Sydney with him after she completed her degree.
I finished high school at Monte Sant Angelo in North Sydney and after attempting a degree in Nursing at University of Sydney I realised I wasn’t ready to commit to full time study and preferred to stretch my legs chasing overseas adventures. My love of travel eventually led me to a 5-year career as a tour guide for Contiki Travel, taking groups of young people across Europe and Asia. When I returned to Australia, I worked on the Sydney Harbour Bridge with Bridge Climb tours. I always loved being an orator and sharing my passion for travel and history with others. Unfortunately, but somewhat serendipitously, I had an injury which meant I could no longer work there. My sister, who was already a Partner in her own Criminal Defence Firm took me on as a temporary Practice Manager until I figured out my next move, which, 5 years later, turned out to be practicing law!
How long were you studying for? Did you study online?
I enrolled as a mature age student when I was 30. I started off in secondary education, as I had aspirations to become a high school history teacher. I transferred to Law after one semester and completed the entire degree online while working full time.
Why did you want to study law?
I honestly never thought I would be able to finish a law degree. There was a huge amount of imposter syndrome happening for me from the get-go. The main reason I transferred from Education to Law was the environment I was working in at the time. As strange as it sounds, it wasn’t because I had any immediate passion for becoming a lawyer. It was more that I wanted to prove to myself and my peers that I was capable of doing it. Working as a support professional in Law was fantastic, but every social event would be spent with Barristers and Solicitors discussing changes to legislation, the weeks court gossip and the upcoming cases and it was difficult to engage when you didn’t have the background knowledge. I found myself, for the first time ever, feeling like the quietest person in the room because I couldn’t contribute. After I began the degree was when the passion for the job really kicked in and I realised that I could make real change in people’s lives doing this job.
Associate, Phoebe MacDougall
Where have you decided to work after graduating and why?
After working for my sister in her previous firm for 5 years, I made the move to the NSW Public Defenders Office. It was here I finished my final year of University and really started to become comfortable in what I wanted my practice to look like after admission. Working for the Public Defenders exposed me to the most vulnerable of offenders. Offenders from low socio-economic backgrounds, complex criminal charges, and the opportunity to work alongside some of the state’s best barristers. When my sister and her business partner, Carly Hydes, told me they were opening a new firm I knew straight away I wanted to come on board and expand their legal aid practice, they were predominantly taking on only private work at the time. It has now been 2 years working at MacDougall and Hydes Lawyers and I am proud to say that I have achieved what I set out to do.
What excites you about your job?
Still being in the early years of my practice as a lawyer means that I am constantly taking on new challenges. What excites me most is appearing in matters which involve applications I’ve not yet attempted on my own. I spent my first year cutting my teeth in the Local Court or instructing counsel in the higher courts. Now, after completing my second year, I am doing more and more of my own applications and as intimidating as it is, it always feels great to achieve something new. I love being part of a female led team and being able to mentor our younger support staff in the early years of their careers.
I love being part of a female led team and being able to mentor our younger support staff in the early years of their careers.
Congratulations to you and your sister on making the Doyles List! What is the Doyles list and what category were you in?
Doyle's Guide is the leading independent guide to top law firms and lawyers in Australia. To obtain a listing on the Doyles Guide you must be ranked by your peers in the annual survey. In 2022 and 2023 I was grateful to achieve a ranking in the NSW Criminal Law Rising Star category, a category for solicitors in their first 5 years of practice. I was humbled to achieve a ranking alongside both partners of the firm. For me it is confirmation that the solicitors and barristers I work alongside appreciate the culture we are cultivating in our firm. We try to ensure we are being respectful and professional in all our interactions with our peers and the bench while providing a high quality of representation to all of our clients, whether they be legally aided or private.
What have been your biggest challenges in your study journey? What has helped you along the way?
The biggest challenge I had as a student was grappling with the constant fear that I was not cut out for what I perceived to be a course for ‘academic’ people. Finding my confidence in my course took time but I was lucky enough to have an encouraging support network who kept me on track and reminded me that I was just as capable as students who achieved high results in their high school years. Being a mature age student came with its own challenges; juggling full time work and full-time study meant sacrificing a lot of the social aspects of life that people my age didn’t have to. It was often isolating to know that my friends were in advanced stages of their careers while I was beginning mine, but I think having the benefit of life experience made many of the challenges of university seem less daunting. The online course came with fantastic support from staff, and I always felt as if UNE provided me with the resources I needed to succeed.
The online course came with fantastic support from staff, and I always felt as if UNE provided me with the resources I needed to succeed.
What have you learnt about yourself through university?
The biggest lesson University has taught me is confidence in my abilities. I never considered myself much of an academic and because of this I struggled to commit to study in my younger years. Having a university that was flexible and encouraging of students in all stages of life provided ne an opportunity to build the confidence to realise that I am in fact capable of much more than I thought I was.
MacDougall & Hydes criminal law team.
Did you study around any hobbies or passions?
I completed my degree while working full time and living entirely out of my campervan. Coming from a travel background meant I wasn’t quite ready to completely leave behind the adventures of my pre-law life. It was certainly an unconventional way of living but being able to do my degree entirely online meant that I could travel wherever I wanted and still be able to login for exams, tutorials, and lectures. In a similar vein, that flexibility made it possible for me to still have a full-time job because I could tailor my studies around my other life commitments.
What advice would you give to uni students or your younger self?
The advice I would give to both prospective students and to my younger self, is not to feel pressured to conform to the conventional pathways of study because of some perceived idea that it is expected of you. Life is full of adventure, and you should say yes to every opportunity that comes your way. Listen to your own intuition, if your gut is telling you it isn’t right for you, have the courage to choose change. What I loved most about UNE was the flexibility the university had around transferring courses and the different methods of study to suit what I was doing in other areas of life.
In your opinion, what is the most challenging part for new law graduates?
I think the most challenging part of being a new graduate is implementing what you have learnt at university into real life practice. Law is high pressure industry; it can often feel overwhelming and incredibly intimidating. Just remember that everyone started out as a graduate, and it takes time to find your feet. Be kind to yourself!
Is there anything you would like to include about yourself or your work?
MacDougall and Hydes Lawyers are passionate about encouraging young graduates to enter the world of criminal defence work. We are always looking to support graduates with PLT practical experience and encourage any UNE graduates to get in touch if they are looking to gain experience in our area of law. We pride ourselves on providing a supportive environment which encourages our staff to achieve their professional goals while prioritising their personal lives and mental wellbeing
